Wanting to try and get an ongoing thread started, basically assessing the views of the users we have online here.
Given the wide skills base and experience found on this forum I think it should be an interesting discussion.

The question up for discussion is: "If you could design the 'perfect' cost no issue rifle for 3 position and prone, what features would it have?"

How I wish to talk through this is that every week or so, depending on how things go, we will discuss a different component of the rifle.
You can either give a brand of component, or just features of an individual component or manufacturer.

It would be more interesting to my mind though if we didnt just assemble something theoretically from component X, Y and Z that is already availible.

Starting with the action as the core of the rifle: Bolt, falling block, or combination (MÄNNEL type), action shape; square or round, and so on...

Krico.22
For 3 position the problem is very complicated.
You must acquire two or three butt plates in order to find again the 3 position fastly .Disassembling and assembling and readjusting can create confusion and Mistakes!
And at least two Micrometer rear sights and two Front sights complete ( first for prone and knee and second for standing ).
All expensive but practical and fast.

Krico.22,
at present if I had to acquire a new rifle I would ( only for Prone Position):

Anschutz 1913 INOX BARREL with stock 1918 Alu Precise euro 2.500 / with Alu stock Gruning & Elmiger euro 4.700
or
Bleiker ( perhaps I succeed to see that rifle within year-end ) with Alu stock RS Revolution III Gruning & Elmiger. euro 7.000

Micrometer rear sight and front sight Anschutz 20 click euro 470
or
Rear sight Centra Mec model Centra Base 10-50 euro 348 + tunnel Score Plus Centra euro 278

Iris AHG9781-S euro 160
or
Anschutz Iris filter Centra Mec 3.0 Combi euro 135

Vibrake Centra Mec euro 150

Handstop Centra Mec euro 93

Palm rest euro 230

Sling Centra Mec 19960001 euro 185

Centra block raisen/offset up/retractable. euro 74

7.000/8.500 euro...after this ....if you want Border or Lilja barrel ..... euro......... and Mec adjustable screw-in foresight euro 92/109, dynamometri key....., Mec tube euro 85/185... etc etc.

Ammo Eley Tenex euro 12,00 /13,00 for 50

I believe is a good line of departure and quality.

And then training, precision and "head".These not are still on the "market" ! lol

bye




De gustibus non est disputandum:
Non bisogna discutere sui gusti

Sounds very good Max.

Re: 3 position, I was thinking that you would probably exchange stocks/butt plates etc.

The rifle/s you have just described are all off the shelf componentry. Can you say why you used those components?

What I am trying to go along the lines of, is using features of many different brands and components, not just pre-existing off the shelf gear.

Cheers

Krico

Krico.22,
many years ago when I shot 120 3 positions I used Smallbore free rifle Anschutz 1913 stock in wood walnut for prone and knee and stock wood walnut standard like stock for air rifle (lighter and manageable ) two butt plates ad two Micrometer rear sights.
I have been well also because in a same day in the morning I competed in 60 prone for fist match ( the first 40 shots were valid for the 120 3 position) + 40 knee + 40 standing to in order to complete the 120; in the afternoon 60 in air compressed rifle.
On the rifle prone position also I had made a modification, butt plate with door hinge for being able to rotate and to set better.
Years after I have been one of first using the tube in order to extend the line of sight of the rifle, I did not succeed to find who could construct it for me.
If I could have the technologies we have now!

Those components I describe are the best on market, I know and use some of these products and if I had to begin with the shooting I would buy them! I know those brands because are european factory. they are expensive but well made and reliable,
Last year in Milano at World Cup I have seen the international champions Chineses, South Coreans, Japaneses and South Americans and East europeans acquiring these products.
technology and quality created by factories with the aid of world-wide champions

Fair comment.
I am not one to say that a component is perfect. If we always settled for current technology and thinking, progression would stop. We would still be shooting with the equipment you just described.

My thinking is that there is always room for improvement, no matter how small. Although the G&E Revolution and the Bleiker are what you want, Joe Blogs might wish that it had some component or idea that only Anschutz currently use.

All I am saying is that If you could mix and match ideas and components from different manufacturers, or indeed, from an idea you may have of your own, what would you blend together, what could we come up with?

Krico

For prone shooting.
An action that could be loaded without the need to move your right elbow (right handers) would be a BIG advantage.

Ciao Bullwacka & Krico.22,
Innovations?
Bleiker rifle that I have mentioned and the recent one rifle Manner with rear bolt could be loaded without the need to move your right elbow (right handers) would be a BIG advantage for a shooter.
Krico.22 are you trying some idea to develop?
Today it seems to me that the constructors have invented nearly all.
one of the last innovations:
Centra recently has constructed a tunnel in transparent plastic....

Krico.22,
action shape: square or round ?
The best one would be square but the problem is that it is blocked of usual from 4 screws and even if you use dyna key you do not lock the screws in correct way. Two are better than four; I am convinced that less pieces are in a mechanical part and better is.

Today the space for the innovations is limited, I would try the improvement with balancing weights and controlling the vibrations of the rifle.Manufacturers have made little in this field.

It is important for the inexpert snipers to eliminate those 9,9 due to the residual vibration that disturbs the exact alignment.
The important is not to go to complicate simple equipments. A simple thing works better than a complicated thing.
it must become simpler!

In the rifle... Crews brugola or simply exagonal scews are useg in in many various measures... why not use a single measure? 4 mm or 5 mm ? you think how many keys you must have in order to mount and to take apart every time! Many of these screws could be replaced with screws with handle with spring for speed regulation

Remember a Latin maxim of 2000 years ago inherent to the simplification......"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem"

Ok if an idea comes to me I call you

perhaps have you some new idea to develop?We speak of it .... You are an engineer..... if I do not mistake


-----------------------------------------------------------
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem:
Gli elementi non sono da moltipicare oltre il necessario

You are right Max, I am an engineer. I am always curious/trying to learn, not so much because of my profession, but the reason for choosing it.

I have many ideas floating in the vast empty spaces of my mind!
I see a lot of ideas in the smallbore world, but none where they are all used together. Manufacturers use their own technology, as it makes sense to do.
Different manufacturers seem to move along the lines of their own ideas, train of thought if you will.

What I am trying to do is to get people to think outside the square...

Hypothetical: A square Bleiker action, 2 action screws, short throw bolt, loading port set as far back as possible to facilitate loading without moving that important right elbow.

Follow what I mean?

As far as viabrations; you cannot eliminate them from moving parts, so as you say, there is a need to control them in a repeatable manner, in order to be able to control shot to shot variables.
There are any number of ways to control those viabrations, but, which way is best or do you prefer, and why...

Krico

Krico.22,
I speak about that with a friend...sniper and engineer…... if in future we have some idea .... we speak with you.


P.S. I have rectified mine previous POST

ciao

Krico.22,
This could turn out to be a very interesting thread. I have given the issue of the perfect rifle a lot of thought and have introduced one product, an integral action tunable stock, using a barrel mount rather than the conventional action mounting.

It is interesting that there are several "bull pup" styles of stock out there but they don't seem to catch on. They have all the features that reduce hand movement in loading and cycling the bolt without moving the elbow. It may be price but other then that they look like a good idea.

I am experimenting with an Anschutz 2013, an Anschutz 1411 (54 round action), a Winchester 52 and a Remington 40 X trying to determine the advantages, or lack thereof, for each.

Vibration management, balance and the ability to fit the stock to the individual are all key issues and my struggle for the "super secret" formula will continue.

I would like to hear some of your ideas on the matter.

Jeffrey

http://www.gunsworld.com/french/unique/u-arms/xconcept.html

Check the Unique....it is unique in that the action could be mounted in the traditional method OR by a barrel mount method.Several Olympic shooters, Amat and Debeveck shot them for some time.

When I was in Bisley in 2000, the importer of the rifle set up a booth there and I stopped by to examine the innovative design..in fact I stopped by several times. I was truly smitten with the rifle!

It was DIFFERENT..but it felt so assuring in your shoulder!!

However, I speculate the company is defunct...shame.

Roy

Jeffrey,
for bull-pup you mean rear and submergeeed in the stock ?
I have seen those some years ago but are disappeared from the circulation, good shooters have used this system but they have not given positive outcomes.
It was a good idea but the height and the deviation of the sight line it created various disadvantages.
The barycentre of the weight was moved towards the rear; probably changing the balance between front and rear weight it did not give the optimal set.
Bleiker and Manner have resolved the problem of the optimal loading maintaining the set like before.
I do not know Mannel because is on the market from a year.
Bleiker is used from various years in Germany and Swiss..

Massimo,
At one time Carabina made a competition grade small-bore rifle that had the trigger and bolt located just under the loading port. It seemed to limit the amount of hand movement when loading. I can not find current link to it so I have no idea if it is available.

Jeffrey

Gidday Jeff

I have looked at your stock/tuner combination with some interest. I have seen the barrel block mounting/floating method used with success in full bore rifle shooting, and had been thinking along those lines for small bore when your stock turned up in the Tuner thread.
With the combination of your tuner and the barrel block method, I think that it would be a lot less time consuming to set up the rifle to shoot well, especially with an indexed barrel with cone breech.

Given the right inletting, a stock built with a barrel block could be made to fit a number of different action designs/brands with minimum of modification compared to the bolted/bedded combination so often used in all forms of rifle shooting.

This system, I think, would mean that a square action would not gain an advantage on a round action, as its superior bedding characteristics become redundant. Therefore, the cheaper, machined from bar stock round action would work just as well. This is all theory mind you.

Moving onwards... Barrels:
It would seem that indexing ones barrel, and using a coned breech, as has been seen to work in bench rest would be the way to go. So using a round profile action, with pinch barrel, giving easy indexing and easily adjustable headspace would give the necessary adjustments needed.

So, Gain twist, left or right hand, 2, 4 or 6 groove, what is peoples preference?

I have no intention of using this discussion or any information shared on here for commercial gain, just for the record.

Krico

Krico.22,
I am not a big fan of coned breeches. If you cut them so you get good extraction you tend to weaken the chamber mouth. Some say the chamber mouth will flex under the pressure of firing. I also like a full anvil under the firing pin.

I index the barrel before I fit it to the receiver so I really don't need a coned breech. If you where to index the barrel by firing it in the stock then a coned breech would be necessary.

As far as barrels go they are all popular. I have had success with tight bores (2 groove)and standard bores in a variety of groove counts and twist rates. Popular twist rates stay around the 16, 16.5's and 17.5's area. I personally shoot a gain twist at 16.5 to 16 with no complaint. The key is to get a nice straight barrel with a good bore finish that slugs correctly and it will shoot.

I do think that barrel block mounting takes a lot of the complexity out of the barreled action to stock joining. It is simple and repeatable. I can't say with any confidence that barrel mounting would affect how different actions perform. They would tune differently but I think they could all get to the same level of performance.

This is a huge topic and I suspect it will take quite awhile to sort through it.

Jeffrey

And there-in lies the interest and fun in discussing it

Boys,
In (my God how much I am old!) 1978 (prehistory for shooting and rifles ) I had gone to a dealer to purchase an air-rifle Feinwerkbau 300 Universal. The dealer was a gunsmith ( he was also one of the best italian snipers ) showed me a prototype for a smallbore with match54 action.
Alu-Stock !!! And match54 action when shot it recoiled backwards on an undercarriage with ball bearing...... then a spring bring everything forward .
It was a movement of 1/1,5 centimeters ..... that to the shot it was come unhooked…..it went behind and it returned ahead! It dampened the recoil and the vibration.
An effect similar to the Air-rifle to barrel/action recoiling Feinwerkbau 300 Universal of that time.
That was an idea to develop!
Logically I have not seen the details !
Unfortunately not l' I have never seen on the fields of shooting


Italians do it better !!

Max,
That is a very interesting idea. It might have responded a lot like a bench rest rifle shot with free recoil.

What kind of accuracy does a "perfect rifle" expect to achieve in your mind. There seems to be an invisible wall at around .25 center to center at 50 yards/50 meters for position rifles. Many bench rest rifles will perform better then that with specialized stocks and mechanical rests.

Another issue that could be discussed is the chamber design. I have used both the EPS style chamber and a 52D type using round nose and EPS ammunition in both of them with little or no difference in performance. Of course that is after tuning the rifle to that particular ammunition.

Jeffrey